Sway the Undecided

[.RJ]

There was an article earlier this year in the NY Times about a group of people in section 8 housing (i.e. government paid for) that were livid that they had to do community service to 'pay' for their free housing.

The article played it up like they were somehow in the right about it. I dont fucking get it, but oh well.

[JackoliciousLegs]

^^^^^^
wtf does that have to do with the price of eggs?
.RJ!!! HEYYY!!! THE CONVERSATION IS OVER HERE!!!!

[.RJ]

Jack, are you fucking high?

[Evan]

Ive stayed out of this one (hitting your head against a wall gets tiresome), but to go back to the original question, Bush's economic policies are simply superior in this economic climate. Everyone knows that economic trends, and after the most prolific economic period in our contry's history, the economy was set for a downturn of similar proportions. Add on 9/11 and the million lost jobs directly accountable, and we were set up for the worst recession in decades.
Bush's agressive economic policies have kept us out off the rock bottom, and while the economy certainly hasnt been fantastic for the past 4 years, it has been a lot better than it could have been, and is now showing significant growth.

but dont take my word for it, listen to Nobel Prize winner in economics Edward Prescott. You could say he knows a little more than any of us about the subject

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/1019Prescott19.html">http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... ott19.html</a><!-- m -->

But on the economic front, especially when it comes to taxes and economic growth, the president's policies are more likely to bear fruit, according to Arizona's new Nobel Prize laureate.

"That's an easy one," said Edward Prescott, the Arizona State University professor who shared the 2004 Nobel Prize for economics. advertisement




"When you cut tax rates, employment always goes up," he said in a phone interview Monday with The Arizona Republic.

Prescott, speaking from Minnesota, where he advises the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, described Kerry's plan to roll back tax cuts for top wage-earners as counterproductive.

"The idea that you can increase taxes and stimulate the economy is pretty damn stupid," he said.

[G.Irish]

I would describe the Middle East as a big ball of shit per se but it certainly a much less safe region than the United States.

People gripe and moan about military spending but think about where we would be without. Maybe under the boot of Hitler III. Maybe living in the shadows of the Soviet empire. Who knows maybe there'd be a lot wars right now. A lot of countries are basking in the security we're providing today. Those ungrateful French should have big ass American flags hanging from the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triumphe after we bailed them out in WWII.

Deterrence is hard for anti-military people to see because to them if nothing happens it means you didn't need the deterrent. But you WANT nothing to happen.

As I've said before I think we could afford to be smarter with our military spending and how we have the military organized. There's no reason for us to be spending $2 Billion on attack submarines for a non-present enemy when we have reservists getting killed in the field because they don't have armored vehicles or bulletproof vests.

On the welfare/social programs front I don't think that handouts is the way to go. At the same time we need to be striving for equality of opportunity and trying to improve our educational system rather than ignoring the problem under the guise of fallacious attitudes like "the poor deserve to be poor". A lot of the times what I see between the two parties is that the Democrats want social programs but they do them wrong so the Republicans want to get rid of them rather than fix anything or address the problem.

[Maengelito]

As I've said before I think we could afford to be smarter with our military spending and how we have the military organized. There's no reason for us to be spending $2 Billion on attack submarines for a non-present enemy when we have reservists getting killed in the field because they don't have armored vehicles or bulletproof vests.

just to set the record straight, you cant give cercom money and then expect to have vests in your hand the next day. they have been running at full capacity for the past couple of years which has directly affected projects i've been working on. i believe that every soldier does now in fact have body armor. as for humvees, lets just say that you only hear about when the up armor package doesnt work.

[ButtDyno]

but dont take my word for it, listen to Nobel Prize winner in economics Edward Prescott.

"That's an easy one," ..."When you cut tax rates, employment always goes up," ..."The idea that you can increase taxes and stimulate the economy is pretty damn stupid,"

That was articulate. Is that why he's a Nobel Prive winner?

[G.Irish]

Awesome, thanks for the info *thumb up*

Still, a lot of the Cold War legacy programs need to be scaled back or cancelled so we can focus on the threats at hand.

[.RJ]

More drivel from bill maher's corner last night.... i'm glad I only watch it when i'm channel flipping. He was referring to WWII, and our continued occupation in europe after the war when he said "5 more years only got us more dead people and Iraq is just going to be the same"

Ugh. I'd like to punch him in the throat.

[John]

John's economic perspective (since economics is what matters to me most):

While I don't care for either candidate, Kerry's "plan" simply won't work. There is absolutely no feasible way to roll back tax cuts, balance the budget, all while dumping more money into security (borders included), ignoring medical liability issues (which have gotten out of hand) throwing more money at welfare institutions (medicare and Social Security included), and addressing the need for SS reform.

There's a reason so many Americans don't have health insurance, mainly because of the extremely high liability costs (thank you trial lawyers) and pharmaceutical costs (you can thank the FDA for that one). Kerry / Edwards embrace the idea that everybody is a victim. Many medical fields have to allocate 70-80% of their revenue towards liability. And if anyone is advocating nationalized / socialized health care, I highly encourage you to visit a Veteran's Administration or a military hospital. I grew up under that care (of the latter), and it is worse than "teh suck."

Jobs. Our unemployment rate at the moment is the exact same as what it was during the Clinton administration. While there are legitimately unemployed people, there are also many "voluntarily" unemployed people that refuse to take a job because "it isn't good enough" or "don't feel like having to make a change in life." Outsourcing. It happens... it's called the evolution of an economy. While there are tax loopholes that many institutions are exploiting, the main reason many corporations have moved specific sectors overseas is based on the fact that we are no longer competitive. Industries wax and wane... our economy evolves. What that means is that we have to be innovative and move towards what is the future in our economy.

I had planned on throwing away my vote this year, since I believe the two party system in this country is severely flawed. The DNC and GOP have a quasi-political monopoly that hinders the growth of a grassroots / 3rd party. Plus, the rhetoric of voting for the person that you dislike the least isn't the way a democratic system should run.

It's a common trend to see political candidates become more moderate as the election date nears, but Kerry has gone from middle-left to Communistic left, and I now I feel that I can't just throw away my vote. As a result of Kerry's sprint to the left, I will be voting for the person I dislike the least (Bush), as I just can't stand seeing a Communist in the seat of power in our country.

John, who is neither Democrat, nor Republican

[Mike]

John, who is neither Democrat, nor Republican

But John you have to be! People can't fathom that there might actually be other parties out there or that an idividual might vote based the issues rather than party affiliation! How un-american of you...

[John]

People can't fathom that there might actually be other parties out there or that an idividual might vote based the issues rather than party affiliation! How un-american of you...

*gasp*

Heaven forebid!

I must be unpatriotic because I think beyond the fenceline of the herds of cattle on their way to the slaughterhouse.

America is full of a sea of idiots... we're screwed...

John, the "optomist"

[Mike]

Thinking anything different is unpatriotic, you know this, as did Hermann Goering... or at least that is what he relied on:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Spoken from his cell during the Nuremberg Trials...

edit: I know I've posted this quote before, but there are some new people that I'd like to reach with this blast from the past.

[G.Irish]

Outsourcing? The reason we are getting screwed by it is that other countries do not have any of the environmental or worker protection laws so of course Americans can't compete. On top of that the cost of living in the United States has gotten horribly inflated to the point we cannot compete with someone living in Bangalore.

This wouldn't be such a problem if we could all move to the boonies where we wouldn't have to make so much in order to live but in general the level of education in most rural areas is pretty poor so most companies have little reason to stay in the United States. On top of that its not like we could move to India or China to work either.

Look at auto manufacturing. Almost all of the foreign manufacturers have factories here because of our trade policy. I'm not saying blanket tariffs are the answer but I am saying that the ignorant attitude of "Let the market fix it" is dumber and more dangerous.

Paul Samuelson, an economics Nobel Prize winner and one of the eminent figures in economics also thinks that outsourcing could end up having a bad net result for the United States. From an article about his article:

His article, Mr. Samuelson added, is not a refutation of David Ricardo's 1817 theory of comparative advantage, the Magna Carta of international economics that says free trade allows economies to benefit from the efficiencies of global specialization. Mr. Samuelson said he was merely "interpreting fully and correctly Ricardoian comparative advantage theory." That interpretation, he insists, includes some "important qualifications" to the arguments of globalization's cheerleaders. Those qualifications are not new to Mr. Samuelson. He noted that in a different context, he touched on similar matters as far back as 1972 in a lecture he delivered shortly after he won his Nobel Prize, titled "International Trade for a Rich Country."

All that said there are a few points in the outsourcing debate that I think are overlooked. For one, the Internet bubble bursted so there was a huge amount of attrition there. Also, I think there were a ton of people doing "IT" that were not qualified to do it that ended up losing their jobs (think English majors turned Web Designers). I also think that a lot of the IT industry is terribly inefficient because a lot of IT companies do not follow good design or management practices. All of these things could cause job loss in the statistics but are not really causes for alarm.

As for Kerry's promises of healthcare and Social Security and all that I too believe he has overpromised. There's no way he's going to be able to pay for all of that stuff, at least not in 4 years. Also, the fact that his running mate is a trial lawyer means that we're probably not going to see any tort reform for awhile :roll:

Similarly, Bush likes to parrot the "let's lower taxes" idea in order to stimulate the economy. Tax cuts are good as long as they are not at the expense of things we need. When I see tax cuts that means we either need to cut spending on something or run up a stupid deficit. Lately we've been doing the latter. Will we pull out and be able to get the deficit down? I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that is any more likely under Bush than it is under Kerry.

I think the argument that tax cuts always create more jobs is simplistic and disingenous. Does this mean that if there were zero taxes there would be infinite jobs? What about trickle down economics, how well did that idea work?

[.RJ]

Tarriffs have put the steel industry's nuts in a vice.

[G.Irish]

I think everyone situation is different. One thing that tariffs can do is make American companies lazy. The ship building industry had a bunch of tariffs and American shipbuilders decided to continue being stupid by using the Standard system instead of metric and now they've been decimated by global competition.

I'm not quite sure how you would structure a tariff or tax to reward companies that stay in the US but I know it'd have to be very well thought out to prevent having the opposite than intended effect. Either way US education is key in long term competitiveness.

Hopefully some of the greedy IT companies won't sell themselves and us up the creek by outsourcing their core competencies to other countries so they can come back and do battle with us in 10 to 15 years. Giving your outsourcees capital and intellectual capital is guaranteeing that they are going to cut the middle man out one of these days.

[John]

Outsourcing? The reason we are getting screwed by it is that other countries do not have any of the environmental or worker protection laws so of course Americans can't compete. On top of that the cost of living in the United States has gotten horribly inflated to the point we cannot compete with someone living in Bangalore.

True, and this is why we should stop embracing the "victim" perspective and work towards a solution that will further our economy by moving forward towards something where we will have a comparative advantage.

Look at auto manufacturing. Almost all of the foreign manufacturers have factories here because of our trade policy. I'm not saying blanket tariffs are the answer...

Tariffs for the longest time hurt the consumer more than the American worker in my opinion since it limited the consumers choices on particular price points. But the largest impetus for many European and Japanese manufacturing to move here is because their labor costs more in their own country than it does here. So now the U.S. produces many "European" and "Japanese" cars for the entire world, not just the U.S. and Canadian markets.

...but I am saying that the ignorant attitude of "Let the market fix it" is dumber and more dangerous.

No, you're right to a certain extent, but the more regulation you impose, the more you hinder the market. You have to find a the fine line of balance for regulation to help direct it in order to maximize your "win-win" scenario.

All that said there are a few points in the outsourcing debate that I think are overlooked. For one, the Internet bubble bursted so there was a huge amount of attrition there. Also, I think there were a ton of people doing "IT" that were not qualified to do it that ended up losing their jobs (think English majors turned Web Designers). I also think that a lot of the IT industry is terribly inefficient because a lot of IT companies do not follow good design or management practices. All of these things could cause job loss in the statistics but are not really causes for alarm.

Very true. Many of those people contribute to my "volutarily unemployed" classification. You are correct in the mismanagement that plagues our corporate and government sectors though. The market faster than the corporate governance (including all levels of management) could mature.

[ScottyB]

Tarriffs have put the steel industry's nuts in a vice.

word. my dad used to work for Lukens Steel in Conshehocken PA back in the day. i've had a chance to see some of the steel plants around PA during various trips and its pretty nasty how much the industry dried up.

[John]

I think everyone situation is different. One thing that tariffs can do is make American companies lazy. The ship building industry had a bunch of tariffs and American shipbuilders decided to continue being stupid by using the Standard system instead of metric and now they've been decimated by global competition.

I will admit that I am not a big fan of statistics since empirical evidence can be contorted towards a certain bias. However, I do find a few numbers to blatantly show an effictive trend that tariffs cause to the American consumer. For example, James Bovard cited in the mid-90s in his book The Fair Trade Fraud that the steel tariffs of the early 90s cost the American consumer market $700K for each $50K steel worker job. MFA caused the textile industry to force a similar disparity on the American consumer market. (Disclaimer: While I don't believe these numbers are 100% accurate, I do believe there is validity to the severity of them). What this tells me is that it would be cheaper (and more beneficial) to offer educational grants to displaced manufacturing / industrial jobs. Hell, it'd be cheaper to have them sit home and watch Opray Winfrey than go to work. But unfortunately, Americans are embodied in "feel good" political mentality, so this won't happen since people resist change.

I'm not quite sure how you would structure a tariff or tax to reward companies that stay in the US but I know it'd have to be very well thought out to prevent having the opposite than intended effect. Either way US education is key in long term competitiveness.

Hopefully some of the greedy IT companies won't sell themselves and us up the creek by outsourcing their core competencies to other countries so they can come back and do battle with us in 10 to 15 years. Giving your outsourcees capital and intellectual capital is guaranteeing that they are going to cut the middle man out one of these days.

Two words: flat tax.

Throw out all the current tax code. It's 50,000+ pages of garbage is so convaluted that it creates loopholes. So many loopholes that corporations spends billions of dollars of a year to pay for efforts to search these loopholes out and exploit them. I firmly believe that the complexity of our tax code actually manifests malignant corporate governance behaviors in our country. In fact, it's not a new phenonemon, but occurs in many other countries, and especially happened following the privatization of many institutions in Eastern Europe.

Edit: Just wanted to say "good discussion (y0)!"

[Evan]

i believe that every soldier does now in fact have body armor.

They do all have body armor, in fact, all soldiers had body armor before being deployed. (despite kerry's lies of the contrary)
It all just wasnt the brand new model of armor