+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Lounge (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Thread: Sway the Undecided (/showthread.php?tid=1178)
Sway the Undecided - Dragon - 10-14-2004
Ok so I've been reading both of the ongoing political threads (nothing better to do at work), and as many of you have seen from my posts I am undecided, in fact not even sure I will vote, but I'd like to hear some educated statements for your choice in candidate.
I don't wanna hear why you aren't voting for the other candidate, I don't wanna hear generalizations or opinions with no factual basis, I don't wanna hear "cause that other guy's a poopyhead" (that may have worked in elementary school student council elections, but not here), I don't want to hear you cut other people's statements to ribbons (without specific facts to rebute their statement). What I do want to hear is your opinions that have been formed on actual facts (and I don't wanna hear this liberal media or republican media bullshit excuses).
If you're voting one particular way just because you don't like the other candidate and you're choosing the lesser of two evils see above where I don't wanna hear why you aren't voting for the other candidate.
Let's hear some well thought out statements here children, and not attacks on eachother. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and we should respect eachother's opinions (even if we don't agree with them).
- Evan - 10-14-2004
*ducks for cover*
- Evan - 10-14-2004
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mmsports.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1224">http://www.mmsports.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1224</a><!-- m -->
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-16-2004
Quote:Bush says we're strengthening our ties with allies. Wrong. Just plain: wrong. Bush, and it seems, the rest of his followers, have a completely different view on how we should approach the world from Kerry and "silly liberals." Unilateral decisionmaking, solo imperialism, solo invasion of sovereign nations... these are characteristics of other great societies right before their downfall. Bush fails to see (or maybe to acknowledge) that we live in the world... not the US... the world. Being the most powerful nation in the world (or not so much) means working to strengthen ties with other nations. Not preemptively attacking a sovereign nation with a 4 country alliance. I'm not arguing about economics because to argue that a small tax cut shifted the economy either way would be giving a president undue credit (reagan... clinton) imo.
There are four things that frustrate me most about the republican party in general.
1. This idea "let's police the world." Someone may be developing WMDs. They never harmed us... ATTACK! That's like a cop pulling someone over, realizing he has a history of armed violence, and approaching the car while shooting... to make sure he can't do it again. Bush has not been getting foreign policy right.
2. The idea of "we're better than you." Why do you deserve to eat, while he doesn't? This entire american ideology now that "we deserve better." "Buy this, you deserve it." "Live richly." Are you a better person than that guy sitting on a street corner because he was born into poverty and decided that he wanted to be able to have fun too? He bought a bottle of alcohol because he wanted to feel like a real person too. Able to have fun too. Those places in Africa with people starving are getting less money under this administration because the wealthy deserve a tax break. More than policing the world, we need to help the world. Again, we live in the WORLD not the US. (2 refers to foreign aid and social programs)
3. Education after "preemptive safety." I'd rather have the money in the ISAT program. period. If you're out of school, than you haven't experienced budget cuts. If you were in school for the transition from Clinton to Bush, you felt it. I felt it. My friends felt it. We were recently rated 37th smartest in the world for science and tech. A C grade country won't survive in the long run.
4. I'm better than you, part 2. No gay marriage. I am not gay. I am for gay rights. What Bush tried to write into the constitution was one word "discrimination". They can't help it. We can finally just accept it. They deserve it because we are not better than them because we're hetero. We are equal. Equal demands equal protection under the law. That means no "civil unions" (although it would be a step). That's separate but equal. Gay marriage. Period.
On the other hand, under what circumstances would I consider bush.
1. Family affiliated with military. Everything from active service to DoD contracts.
2. I'm a large business owner (revenue above 120k)
3. I've never lived out of the US
4. I don't plan to travel much out of the US (maybe mexico, canada, europe)
5. I believe in "Ignorance is bliss"
6. I am Christian conservative and believe that my morals are indeed valid ones. And thus should be emparted on the rest of the fine people of this nation.
7. Education is only a priority because we want our children to focus on an American economy.
8. I deserve a gas guzzling car because I worked my ass off in school for one.
9. Gays can do whatever they want (we won't kill them)... but I won't accept it.
10. I deserve everything I worked for. It's just the luck of the draw (which side of the food chain you're born on)
Why I don't vote on the R ticket.
1. I don't want to profit from our preemptive wars. I will take a lower paying job if it means not working for a defense contractor.
2. I plan to run my own business (and have it be charitable)
3. I've lived outside the US and know that we live in the world, not just the US
4. I plan to be able to leave the US safely at some point to visit obscure places, or maybe live outside again
5. Ignorance is false bliss
6. I believe everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Don't push it on anyone else. (Sorry if I offend any evangelicals we may have)
On a side note, my best friends in Uganda were both missionaries. I don't judge people for doing that, I just don't agree. I see what it does to societies.
7. Education is a HUGE priority in the GLOBAL economy.
8. I deserve a gas guzzling car because I worked my ass off in college for it.
9. Gays can do whatever they want, as long as they don't try to get with me. Yes, that means they should be able to wed.
10. If you are priveleged enough to eat richly every day, we owe it to those who didn't have that start to try to give them that opportunity.
- white_2kgt - 10-16-2004
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:Quote:1. I don't want to profit from our preemptive wars. I will take a lower paying job if it means not working for a defense contractor.
no offense, but you can go fuck yourself. period. we keep your ass sitting pretty and happy. if this nation didn't have the defense and itel setup that it does we'd be a big ball of shit just like the middle east. you are not qualified to make statements like that, you have no clue.
--chad
- .RJ - 10-16-2004
I would rather money be put into the defense budget that actually creates jobs for our country rather than bleeding-heart liberal (well, socialist) hand-out programs that do nothing for the country, yet waste money and let people get away with being worthless sacks of shit.
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-16-2004
white_2kgt Wrote:no offense, but you can go fuck yourself.none taken
white_2kgt Wrote:if this nation didn't have the defense and itel setup that it does we'd be a big ball of shit just like the middle east. you are not qualified to make statements like that, you have no clue.There are plenty of other countries that spend less money on "defense" and more on social policies both inside their countries and outside and are considered "safe".
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-16-2004
.RJ Wrote:I would rather money be put into the defense budget that actually creates jobs for our country rather than bleeding-heart liberal (well, socialist) hand-out programs that do nothing for the country, yet waste money and let people get away with being worthless sacks of shit.
![[Image: 20041008differenceactproj650.gif]](http://www.jobwatch.org/ima/20041008differenceactproj650.gif)
the job count may be growing, but it's not keeping pace with the population.
- .RJ - 10-16-2004
What the fuck does projected job growth have to do with anything?
No one is denying that the job market is picking up, and more jobs are being created every month. Anyone want to bitch about the "new" jobs that pay less than the "old" jobs? Look at the floundering stock market and dot-com business crashing.... most people I know that are working in the tech field are getting paid the same as they were 3 years ago, some of them less.
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-16-2004
we're not meeting project job growth goals. i.e. we're not keeping pace with population growth.
- .RJ - 10-16-2004
Maybe if we would keep a better check on immigration this wouldnt be a problem.
I didnt like bush's ideas on this at all. Although Kerry's ideas are even worse.... and I'd love to push the people's republic of Arnold off into the pacific.
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-16-2004
i don't think that they count illegal immigrants. I don't even think they can???
- WRXtranceformed - 10-16-2004
I voted for Kerry for many reasons, but I'll name a few of the most important to me.
We've spent entirely too much money on this retarded war in Iraq. We don't have the support of the key global allies that we need anymore. We can't afford to keep taking on the burden of fixing the mistake we made in Iraq by ourselves. I feel like Kerry can help repair our international relations much better than Bush can or ever would.
I feel like we need to focus our financial resources more on the issues that are really becoming problems in our country. Can you really compare affordable health care and improved education and job security to socialism ? heh We need other countries to help share the financial/military burden in Iraq so we can reinvest in our country. It's easy for us as relatively priviledged Americans to view the state of our economy, health care, etc as beneficial and functional because we're not the ones that are suffering from it.
I'm not going to try to sway your vote or anything, you just have to take the problems that are developing within our own country seriously. As a whole, I feel like the Bush administration has brushed them off and is spending WAY outside of our means. Our deficit is much larger now than it was 4 years ago.
- .RJ - 10-16-2004
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:i don't think that they count illegal immigrants. I don't even think they can???
No, but they can sure as hell count the children of immigrants that are born here as US Citezens.
- white_2kgt - 10-16-2004
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:no offense, but you can go fuck yourself.none taken
white_2kgt Wrote:if this nation didn't have the defense and itel setup that it does we'd be a big ball of shit just like the middle east. you are not qualified to make statements like that, you have no clue.There are plenty of other countries that spend less money on "defense" and more on social policies both inside their countries and outside and are considered "safe".
Why do you think that is? b/c we are the ones defending them. They many not pay $$$ but the returns we get in other ways allows you to sit on that computer of your and spout off this nonsense. The problem is when states like CA and Fl think its a good idea to give illegals drivers license so they can drive to the store and feed their face, that's what you should be upset about. They either need to get their ass deported or become a legal tax paying citizen.
I hate these political threads and that's all I'm going to say on the matter, but you had better not ever make a statment like that again. It just shows plain ignorance.
--chad
- WRXtranceformed - 10-16-2004
You call the entirety of the Middle East "a big ball of shit" and then get pissed when Jack makes a statement that you feel is ignorant ?
Wow. That's sort of off topic, but you need to realize the hypocrisy there 8)
Just relax when you discuss political matters. Don't get so fucking pissed off about shit just because someone interprets something a different way from you. I've only occasionally spoken to people who are truly ignorant about world politics, and it's usually pretty obvious when they are.
Some of the best intellectual conversations you can have, and that I have had, have been on political topics. You can learn a lot about both sides of an issue if you're willing to open your mind and close your mouth from criticizing~
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-16-2004
white_2kgt Wrote:we'd be a big ball of shit just like the middle east.Yeah, I left that one alone
... considering where I'm from and all
- Mike - 10-16-2004
jack is a big ball of shit... like a.... HOT MAN PIRATE!
- Maengelito - 10-16-2004
MichaelJComputer Wrote:jack is a big ball of shit... like a.... HOT MAN PIRATE!
haha, he's not that big... more like a tall pile of shit... much like a hot man pirate.
- Jess - 10-16-2004
Personally, since neither party offers a suitable candidate and voting this year will be like picking Ren or Stimpy (you can decide who's hoo), I've decided to simply vote party lines....that's the only way I can justify any vote for either of these asshats. So I'll be picking the party that historically best represents my values and views. But honestly, if the guy I don't vote for wins, I can't say I'll be upset either.
.RJ Wrote:rather than bleeding-heart liberal (well, socialist) hand-out programs that do nothing for the country, yet waste money and let people get away with being worthless sacks of shit.
yeeeeaaaah....as someone who used to work for social services, let's just say all idealism flew out the window in the first week.
Mostly you find people whose sense of entitlement bets all I've ever seen. In fact, people's benefits would get cancelled because they'd refuse to comply with work requirements, even though EVERY possible obstacle which could possibly interfere with their ability to work had been removed.
VOTE QUIMBY, that's what I say.