IT Industry people, step in plz

[NTIman]

(Sidenote: if any current students are reading this, and you're working on a soft, fluffy lib. arts degree, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE: You've got to get out of there.)

So agreed. I was working on various liberal arts degrees (it changed almost every semester) before I realized I should switch into engineering, which is what I really wanted to do anyway. I'd like to find a good job one day.

[CaptainHenreh]

Back to goody in particular, have you considered just going back for an MBA?

[Apoc]

Back to goody in particular, have you considered just going back for an MBA?

To do what?

[CaptainHenreh]

Back to goody in particular, have you considered just going back for an MBA?

To do what?

Well, i mean, he's talking about cisco academy and shit, which is just one step in a long line of certs if he wants a "good" job... why not go get an MBA and work for uncle sugar?

[.RJ]

Back to goody in particular, have you considered just going back for an MBA?

To do what?

Put letters on the resume.

[Goodspeed]

Great discussion so far, and all good points to consider. Thanks for the contributions

Do you (or your dad) have contacts at DoS that can get you started into an entry level job? I brushed off the idea of looking at fed work when I got out of school, and in some ways I regret it. The pay sucks when you start but you can move up pay grade fairly quickly, you will have a stable place to work, good benefits - this is important - private sector health care costs are going to get expensive soon.

The company I'm at is always hiring sales/support people, if you just need a job. The work is probably pretty shitty (lots of turnover) though.

Perhaps - I'm open to the possibility. I don't know how well I'd get along pursuing one given that I didn't do much, if any, accounting/finance/business stuff in school. And the openings your company has basically sound like what I ended up doing at Vocus :roll: What a cluster that was.

Back to goody in particular, have you considered just going back for an MBA?

I've thought about it. My brother just finished his. But look, here's where I'm coming from (and stop me if I'm crazy) - I've learned a little bit more by now, at my more mature ripe old age of 25, about what I'd like to do and what would be good for my future. I certainly had no idea when I was still 17(!) entering JMU. I'm less of an idealist (lib arts BA) and more of a realist (I should probably learn a valuable skill/trade and use it).

But I've also learned a metric ton about what not to do. If the recent economic climate has shown me anything, saddling one's self with student loan debt without a clear vision of what it could do for you is no bueno. I see, from my distance far off, that IT has a nice, balmy glow around it - it consistently ranks well in every measurable indicator I've seen yet for opportunity, economic resilience, and standard of living.

I'd like to find a way in that offers me a stable career, the ability to learn and apply valuable skills, and if possible, to do this without forking over increasingly large wads of dough for an education to get there. I latched on to the Cisco stuff early in my story b/c, at least as I understood it, it is a good way to learn from the ground up and get your foot in the door. Want more pay, or to go from a tech/engineer to an admin? Get more certs. That kind of thing.

Maybe the grass is so blindingly green on the other side that I'm missing the mark a bit, but for someone in my position it looked like one of possibly many good routes to go. I'm not a math whiz, but if concepts are explained to me clearly in a hands-on, visual environment I think I could pick up IT (whatever iteration) fairly well, with determination and the mindset I currently have.

I'm kind of like, in the same moment, where you're standing in the cereal aisle and there are far too many choices of oat bran to choose from. Do I do this, or do I do that? What indicators do I have if this would be a good choice for me? Sigh - can someone invent time travel already?

[Mike]

can someone invent time travel already?

Uhhhh how do you think we got this in '92?

[Apoc]

Back to goody in particular, have you considered just going back for an MBA?

To do what?

Well, i mean, he's talking about cisco academy and shit, which is just one step in a long line of certs if he wants a "good" job... why not go get an MBA and work for uncle sugar?

You gotta have a target. An MBA isn't a panacea, so getting one without a direction that clearly benefits from it is a waste of time and money. You just need to be able to finish the following sentence, "I am going to get an MBA so that I can..."

[CaptainHenreh]

You gotta have a target. An MBA isn't a panacea, so getting one without a direction that clearly benefits from it is a waste of time and money. You just need to be able to finish the following sentence, "I am going to get an MBA so that I can..."

Well, i agree with you, but goodie needs to do that no matter what. "I am going to get a CCNA so that I can..."

And "get a job to make lots of money" isn't gonna work.

[Goodspeed]

Uhhhh how do you think we got this in '92?

I KNOW RIGHT. Thank you Tsuzuki-san

You gotta have a target. An MBA isn't a panacea, so getting one without a direction that clearly benefits from it is a waste of time and money. You just need to be able to finish the following sentence, "I am going to get an MBA so that I can..."

Well, i agree with you, but goodie needs to do that no matter what. "I am going to get a CCNA so that I can..."

And "get a job to make lots of money" isn't gonna work.

Have a widely used and fairly respected IT certification, that would be a good starting point to finding a relevant job? :dunno:

[.RJ]

Great discussion so far, and all good points to consider. Thanks for the contributions

Do you (or your dad) have contacts at DoS that can get you started into an entry level job? I brushed off the idea of looking at fed work when I got out of school, and in some ways I regret it. The pay sucks when you start but you can move up pay grade fairly quickly, you will have a stable place to work, good benefits - this is important - private sector health care costs are going to get expensive soon.

The company I'm at is always hiring sales/support people, if you just need a job. The work is probably pretty shitty (lots of turnover) though.

Perhaps - I'm open to the possibility. I don't know how well I'd get along pursuing one given that I didn't do much, if any, accounting/finance/business stuff in school.

Doesnt really matter. If you have connections and can get in, you can learn while you're there, and take some classes to learn what you dont.

[Goodspeed]

Perhaps - I'm open to the possibility. I don't know how well I'd get along pursuing one given that I didn't do much, if any, accounting/finance/business stuff in school.

Doesnt really matter. If you have connections and can get in, you can learn while you're there, and take some classes to learn what you dont.

Oops - I garbled up my response. That was directed towards the MBA question. Got it.

[davej]

You gotta have a target. An MBA isn't a panacea, so getting one without a direction that clearly benefits from it is a waste of time and money. You just need to be able to finish the following sentence, "I am going to get an MBA so that I can..."

my last company had an advanced degree as a requirement for any mid level mgmt. similar to how lockheed wouldn't look at anyone w/o a bachelors. (didn't matter in what, i hired a kid with an english degree but he knew his computery stuff)

i'd pick up an mba if for nothing more than a prereq that's checked off for your career down the road. none of my college course work related to what i ended up doing in a real job, and i doubt a targeted mba would either. still value in the overall ideas/methodolgy/concepts you'll learn, sure, but won't substitution for work experience.

also, a lot of companies offer tuition reimbursement for classes, so you're just giving up your time.

oh, and to second a comment made earlier, yeah, private industry pays way better than state/fed. i took a 25k cut going to a state employer (before they offered more $ to stay) and not to mention the bonus' and A+ bennies.
all that bling comes at a job security cost though, at least gov't work appears stable...

[Evan]

STATE govt is very different...

FEDERAL Govt work is VERY well paid and most of the time overpaid in comparison.
(and thats not even taking into account how you dont actually have to do any work)

[HAULN-SS]

I disagree about that for Fed as well. Nobody wants to go into any specifics about pay I dont think, but I agree with dave's range of 25 - 30k underpaid for same job. Job security is basically the differentiator. The place i'm at right now has bad benefits, which I'm sure is making up some of the difference for higher pay, but even my shitty benefits are on par with federal benefits, and I get 4 weeks vacation.

[.RJ]

I disagree about that for Fed as well. Nobody wants to go into any specifics about pay I dont think, but I agree with dave's range of 25 - 30k underpaid for same job. Job security is basically the differentiator. The place i'm at right now has bad benefits, which I'm sure is making up some of the difference for higher pay, but even my shitty benefits are on par with federal benefits, and I get 4 weeks vacation.

You're talking out of your ass. I spent 5 years working with federal payroll systems - I know what skilled fed employees make and it isnt a 30-40% cut. It is generally a much less stressful/demanding work environment and you will almost never work over 40 hours. The only exceptions to this are gov agencies that are primarily not funded by congress (i.e. USPTO, FDIC, SEC, etc) and those places are also much better work environments - people are motivated, shit gets done, the offices are nice.

[davej]

i'm with ya Evan, it's easy money in comparison.

I disagree about that for Fed as well. Nobody wants to go into any specifics about pay I dont think, but I agree with dave's range of 25 - 30k underpaid for same job. Job security is basically the differentiator. The place i'm at right now has bad benefits, which I'm sure is making up some of the difference for higher pay, but even my shitty benefits are on par with federal benefits, and I get 4 weeks vacation.

and i'll bet you can expect some sort of structured salary increases/career path beyond 'wait till bob retires or dies, and you can have his job'

[HAULN-SS]

You're talking out of your ass. I spent 5 years working with federal payroll systems - I know what skilled fed employees make and it isnt a 30-40% cut. It is generally a much less stressful/demanding work environment and you will almost never work over 40 hours. The only exceptions to this are gov agencies that are primarily not funded by congress (i.e. USPTO, FDIC, SEC, etc) and those places are also much better work environments - people are motivated, shit gets done, the offices are nice.

Naw man...I wear jeans and a polo almost every day of the year, and have for at least the last 2 years which most of was spent working for a gov contractor. Now in the commercial world I even sit at a desk looking out a window..it's awesome. Facility is nice, and I dont have to walk a half mile after I park. Regarding pay, we can agree to disagree..it may be a perspective thing with the particular parts of the government ive had experience working in/for. I'm pretty sure TSA agents are overpaid as shit for what they do, but I dont think IT people are.

Regarding stress levels, work life in general..25 is an age where you have no kids, minimal responsibility, and shouldnt mind working a little overtime to prove yourself. This is probably especially true when you're a business major trying to stake your claim in the IT world like goodspeed wants to do. Fed work might appeal more when you're older, but I just dont think its worth what you might miss out on being private until that time.

[.RJ]

Regarding pay, we can agree to disagree..it may be a perspective thing with the particular parts of the government ive had experience working in/for. I'm pretty sure TSA agents are overpaid as shit for what they do, but I dont think IT people are.

I didnt say they were overpaid. They are indeed, underpaid, but not by the $25-30k you mentioned, unless you're comparing someone with a high level DoD clearance in private industry vs. gov work but thats apples to apples. You can disagree all you want, but facts are facts and I knew what the people I worked with made and they were not as underpaid as you might think and you're wrong :lol: :bootyshake:

Fed work might appeal more when you're older, but I just dont think its worth what you might miss out on being private until that time.

Right, but if you dont get into the fed until you're older you miss out on building the time off & pay benefits that accrue that really pay off when you are older. You have to go into that work with a very long term view and when I was out of college I didnt, so I never pursued it.

When you're young is a good time to establish yourself and build skills, but its also a good time to explore hobbies, travel, activities, etc that arent going to be available or practical when you're older. But, errybody got their own life balance there. I dont want to be a worker slave until I'm old and cant enjoy what I've made anymore - this definitely limits my upward mobility at this point, but I'm not going to wait until I retire to enjoy things that are more fun when I'm young, healthy and active. I might get hit by a bus tomorrow too.

[Evan]

more than a few anecdotes on private vs gubment pay for Derek:

A govt coworker has no college degree, age 38 and does data entry for our foia system. Makes 105k and doesnt have to work every other friday for no apparent reason.

My wife was the director of PR/Media at a private company. Equivalent job responsibility in government would more than double her salary.

Gov. PM that I work for makes 15-20k more than company PMs at other places Ive worked (and had much more responsibility)

Gov IT coworker makes over 10k more than I did at the exact same point in my career. And Im in a higher paid sector of IT (development vs networking)

A govt coworker has no degree and is paid 110k to occasionally update a CMS. She speaks almost no english. 2 days a week she "works" from home, 3 days a week she sleeps at her desk.

add on to that the fact they have the best health insurance you can get, they get a pension equivalent to 1% for every year they work plus 401k matching, they get obscene amounts of time off (my PM gets 8 weeks total PTO), free metro, free training, free grad degree/student loan repayment.

And thats not even covering the fact there is zero accountability if you dont want to do work. Which is very common.


Government employment is a sweet deal if you can get in. The only time its underpaid is at the very beginning- GS7 level, after that it ramps up very quickly as you can get a grade increase every year for the first few years. + generous cost of living raises.

getting in early as a student is the easiest way if youre not a veteran. Getting midlevel and up level government jobs if you arent a veteran is near impossible.