IT Industry people, step in plz

[Goodspeed]

....I'll wait, I know there is a lot of you - basically everyone in MM works in IT :lol: File in, theres donuts and coffee by the door.

So. I pretty much decided that I had enough of working in sales and that its time to change things up - for a better tomorrow! Long story short, I graduated in '09 with a BA that I haven't found entirely useful (Int'l Relations); unless I put up with the onerous slog of trying to find a position within the Federal Gubment (entry level position - must have GS-9 qualifications!) or I go back for a masters ($$$ and the only way any of the 3-letter companies will look at me), I'm basically left with a nice piece of paper that is only sufficient for the "hey, I'm an educated, worthwhile member of society" argument that doesn't get anybody hired anymore.

(Sidenote: if any current students are reading this, and you're working on a soft, fluffy lib. arts degree, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE: You've got to get out of there.)

Weighing several options ATM, but I've looked at getting into the IT field, of which I have some basic, past experience. I spent my summers working basically as a paid intern for the DoS (where my dad works) in various IT support offices; installing work stations (including a temporary office for Condoleezza Rice, which was pretty nifty), doing general help desk work, digitizing/cataloging stuff, etc. I did some very basic, instructed maintenance in a server room once or twice.

It was fun and good experience, but at the time I didn't have much interest in pursuing an IT degree in college. I was never a strong math/science student, with few exceptions - I scored approximately Rain Man on every geometry assignment that was put in front of me, but was fairly mediocre everywhere else. Plus, it was still the time of "do what interests you, you'll get a job after graduation". Lulz.

So, I was happy to find out more about the Cisco Networking Academy. Now, I'm still reading through the basics, but it sounds to me as though if you're capable of learning things, you can start their program from the ground level at any one of their training academies (locally, FFX county continuing education, NVCC, GMU) in pursuance of CCNET, CCNA, etc. certification to become a network technician.

Would any of you fine IT folk care to shine your light on pursuing such an endeavor? I'm still reading about the prospects of such a career (it sounds as though if you can get more certifications and work your way up to an Administrator/CCIE role, you can make some serious bank), but don't know really how to approach it. Again, I'm not a math/science wiz, but it sounds like its building-block stuff, understanding protocols, the hardware itself, etc. I'm sure I could break it down and learn it if I put my mind to it. I've looked at NOVA's program of getting an IT/Network Engineer Associate's degree (which includes some Cisco Academy certification training), or just taking the Cisco course training outright - I'm not sure which would be the better way to go in my case.

So, yeah. Any info/guidance/"I've been there" sort of stuff would be great :thumbup: Thank you.

[CaptainHenreh]

CCNA/CCIE isnt' worth what it used to be. But if you're smart, and you don't want to do development shit, you might be ok. Me, I'd try to get like an infosec certificate/associate's degree and go work for uncle sugar. You've got the "political" background for it, you just need the technical chops.

[HAULN-SS]

I dont know how much use CCNA ever was as a practical matter (I did it while still in high school), however, IT guys get their jollies by tacking on certs. I'm a software dev, not an IT guy, but it seems to me that the more certs you have the better for that field. CCNA for example, is only good to maybe learn basics, and prove to someone that you might be able to find your way around on cisco hardware, but probably isnt going to do much to get you in the door at a place using Juniper. You might want to pick an OS to get heavy with too..there are usually unix guys, and windows guys. Different set of admins depending on what the project is using.

[JustinG]

Ever think of getting into project management?

[SlimKlim]

My friend from school went into an entry-level IT position at TIBCO and got training and a fantastic salary right out of school, like another 50% on top of what I'm making, but I think he's traveling most of the time which kind of sucks.

I'm a project manager sort of, and I think its a pretty easy field to get into without a specific education for it, and still have lots of room to grow knowledge, salary, and responsibility-wise. A big benefit of being a PM is you only really need communication skills and situational awareness to get the job done, you don't actually know how to do what you tell other people to do.

In general terms, I know who needs it, why, when its due, what it should look like and do, who needs to be involved to make it happen, what those people need to do, and who needs to keep their noses out of it to keep things running smoothly. All I have to do is bring the people together, make sure they all understand what has to happen, identify any risks we have that would cause it to not happen, and who needs to do what before someone else can do what they need to do. Then I create a schedule, get everyone to agree on it, and report it all back to the original people that asked for it. From that point all I have to do is keep checking in, and keep the information flowing between the business and the worker bees.

I'm constantly answering the question "where is this?" "when will it be done?" "can we slip this one teeny tiny extra requirement/design change in?" "who can fix this?" etc.

It gets a little more complex than that but that sums it up pretty well. I like it because I seem to have a natural tact for picking up on organizational structures, inter-departmental politics, and who I need to talk to in a certain way to get them to do what I want. I'm also good at knowing a little bit about a lot of things. I'm pretty up on web design standards, front end technologies, web marketing, etc. However, I'm far from academic, and learning one thing front to back in its entirety has never been my strong suit, which is why I don't think I'd do so hot in a "production" based role as a developer or something.

[HAULN-SS]

This is going to be borderline off topic, any maybe someone else can chime in, and this definitely would apply to someone trying to figure out what to major in. The closer you get to hard science, the more acceptable it is to be "just above mediocre" at it. Im throwing this out there for your case, because, who knows, maybe you're inspired enough to go get an A.S. in Computer Science or something.

Programmers (just an example)are in such demand that things like your GPA when you graduated, extra curricular crap, internships, etc don't mean nearly as much as they do for soft skills. You can easily be a C average comp sci major coming out of school making 20k more a year than a 4.0 lib arts guy. I'd lump just about every engineering field into that too.

Regarding the post above...trying to be a Project Manager is going to lock you into a certain type of company...i.e. companies that have projects large enough they need to be managed. When I was at Lockheed Martin, we had a ton of project managers. However, every single VP, fellow, chief of whatever that I met while I was there had some soft of hard skills specialty before they got to their current level. I think being a PM gives you a glass ceiling unless you go back and re-educate. (Which is why when I got my masters at GW there were a ton of old people in some of the classes playing catch up)

[Goodspeed]

Thanks for the replies so far - some good insights.

I'll jump ahead a bit chronologically in my reply - I hadn't considered project management, or really anything traditional "business". I took a SSI/Birkman aptitude test and ranked fairly high for IT and very low for business - I think that has to do with my type B introverted-ness, which is all to say, I think I perform best when I'm left to my own devices with a set task. Call it curmudgeonly, but I think I sort of got sick of dealing with tons of people through sales...

I've also gained an appreciation for having certified, tangible skills that you can put on a resume and use in the real world. As Derek put it (and I agree, at least from my experience), if you've gone for a lib. arts degree, you better damn well have the GPA, internships, tribal stamp, life force, whatever to go with it.

For those saying a CCNA isn't the hot ish anymore, is there something that would be more worthwhile to look at, like a Cisco vs. MS. vs. CompTIA kind of thing? Seemed to me in my research that the Cisco certs have a slight edge. Rex, I hadn't looked at security as closely, but I could have a look at that - I know I sounded very gov. focused in my first post but at this point in my life a big part of whats going into my thinking process is geographical location - I don't want to be tied to DC/Nova forever (I know network security doesn't tie you to the feds, just saying in general). To perhaps open this up a bit, I am interested to know more about some of the best entrances one can make for a hands-on IT career.

[.RJ]

Alright, I'll chime in here with some thoughts....

Depending on your career aspirations, be careful what path you are going to go down with network stuff. Working on hardware/help desk definitely has a ceiling as to how far up you can go. The better you are at your job, the more likely the company is going to want to keep you in your position and its hard to get promoted/moved out of that. And if you are tired of dealing with assholes from sales, it may not be any better if you have to work in some kind of service capacity. But, if you want to be in some kind of infosec work, some hands on experience could be very valuable. Job experience will trump certifications all day long.

I've been working as a BA/PM for the past 5-6 years, and its been good work. It can be interesting, and it can also be a giant pain in the ass, customers can be assholes, and if you're good at it, you can grow into program management and above, if the company is large enough. I've enjoyed it but you have to be able to deal with customers and not let their shit bother you (until they're out of earshot).

Do you (or your dad) have contacts at DoS that can get you started into an entry level job? I brushed off the idea of looking at fed work when I got out of school, and in some ways I regret it. The pay sucks when you start but you can move up pay grade fairly quickly, you will have a stable place to work, good benefits - this is important - private sector health care costs are going to get expensive soon.

The company I'm at is always hiring sales/support people, if you just need a job. The work is probably pretty shitty (lots of turnover) though.

[Evan]

Im going to assume that when you say IT, you mean the server, networking, and systems side of things. The programming and software side is something to look at too, overall I think its more challenging, but also can be more rewarding and interesting since you are building and engineering things. Just something to think about.

I think the biggest indicator for succeeding in IT is a genuine interest - "geek" level- in the technology and work that you are doing. If it interests you enough to learn and explore in your free time, at least some, thats a real good sign. Lots of IT guys just kind of learn it just enough because they know its a good stable job and they make for passable IT guys some of the time, but to be really good (and like your job) it should really interest you enough that its fun.

[HAULN-SS]

Just to chime in on the pay thing..Federal benefits aren't what they used to be. I have never worked for the fed directly, but all else being the same, they are undercompensated. I'd guess 20%. The last time I looked for a job, I was surprised to see how many companies in this area have really good benefits. The company I worked for before contributed 6% to 401k, and matched another 4. All that while having 100% paid health care with 10$ deductibles, and giving 1200$ to your FSA. I thought that was sort of uncommon until I searched around for the job after that - a lot of places are starting to make benefits more of a priority. On the other end of the private sector there is higher pay and mediocre benefits. By mediocre I mean somewhere close to fed benefits, but with a lot more pay. Stay private as long as you can, would be my advice. There are a lot of start-up type companies in the DC area if you look. My friend just got a job working for Living Social after working for the government for like 6 years..likes the new job a lot.

[BLINGMW]

Working on hardware/help desk definitely has a ceiling as to how far up you can go. The better you are at your job, the more likely the company is going to want to keep you in your position and its hard to get promoted/moved out of that. And if you are tired of dealing with assholes from sales, it may not be any better if you have to work in some kind of service capacity.

This describes most of the IT guys I know, and I would not want to do their jobs. Pretty much helpdesk with terrible hours and 24/7 on-call slavery to machines and/or "assholes from sales". My first job was in IT (sounds similar to what you did for a bit) and I was a computer guy, but I'm glad I didn't stay on that path. I found I'd rather use the tools myself rather than maintain them for other people to use.
I can offer no further advice, though maybe you could talk your way into a sales engineer position:
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Also, the internet tells me people who ace geometry may like medical imaging or GPS systems. :dunno: Sounds more interesting than IT!

[Apoc]

Nothing sounds worse to me than IT for the feds except maybe cleaning shitters. Most everyone I've ever met in "IT" is miserable or terrible at their job. I'm guessing because those who are actually decent get stuck and hate it and everyone else settled there because it's a passable job. So, I guess I agree with RJ.

Also, +1 for what Evan said on software and programming. There's always work to be done there and if you're good at what you do, the possibilities are endless. We can't hire enough...

[.RJ]

Just to chime in on the pay thing..Federal benefits aren't what they used to be. I have never worked for the fed directly, but all else being the same, they are undercompensated. I'd guess 20%. The last time I looked for a job, I was surprised to see how many companies in this area have really good benefits. The company I worked for before contributed 6% to 401k, and matched another 4. All that while having 100% paid health care with 10$ deductibles, and giving 1200$ to your FSA. I thought that was sort of uncommon until I searched around for the job after that - a lot of places are starting to make benefits more of a priority.

Yep, the pay will be lower to start with but after 10 years in, its a different story. I've noticed in the past 4-5 years there's been a big trend with private sector to start pinching benefits - 401k matching and health care costs are being hit the hardest - 100% health care is really unusual now. Private sector is looking at the 'obama care' health care changes and using it as an excuse to raise employee contributions or to switch to cheaper, shitty coverage to save them money. Gov workers will also, in the long run, get more vacation time, almost always capped at 40 hours a week, and have some work schedule options that wont exist in private sector, like every other friday off (5/4/9). And, if you have a gov job, its not going away - I got laid off last year, and

My friend just got a job working for Living Social after working for the government for like 6 years..likes the new job a lot.

Grass is always greener. Might be a different story in 2 or 3 years if he gets laid off.

[Mike]

I started my own IT business. If you like cranky people, trying to solve issues that nobody has ever encountered YESTERDAY, not sleeping at night, etc., it might be the job for you! I'd have shut down last year if it didn't bring it a significant chunk of cash per year.

Also being on the software side full-time, I can definitely say there is a ceiling to be hit, but the bump doesn't hurt too much if you're working at a great place. I make pretty good money, work very flimsy hours, wear whatever I want... I was burnt out on this profession before coming here five years ago, but I can say that without a doubt finding the right company is as important (if not more) than finding the right profession.

And yes, all grads who aren't in school to train an actually marketable skill are going to be fucked more and more. If you are one of them and happen to be reading this, do your parents and yourself a kindness and change. That extra year schooling may take due to being pointed in the wrong direction will pay itself off in a couple of years when you actually have a job.

[G.Irish]

My opinion on government vs private is that the benefits in government can grow to be good, but they're not great when you start. I would consider going government if I got to work in a decision-making capacity but the problem I have is that I'd have to go back to only having 2 weeks of leave to start. Over time I'd get more but it would take me well over 10 years to get back to where I am now with leave.

As RJ said though, a lot of govvy positions have telecommute options and alternative work week. Training is usually available and you're not at the whim of the contracting game. The downside is that fed bureaucracy can be incredibly frustrating, especially when your superiors are idiots. Pay-wise you're also going to take a hit and you can't jump in pay as quickly as you can in private sector.

If you want to have a solid career I'd recommend programming because that is in the highest demand, has the most flexbility, and the most job security. Learning on your own is also a bit easier with programming than it is with networking.

My friend just got a job working for Living Social after working for the government for like 6 years..likes the new job a lot.

LivingSocial may be a bad example to use, they just had to lay off 10% of the company and are losing money (to the tune of over $500 million in just the last quarter). If I were your friend I would have my eyes peeled for my next job.

[DavidM]

And yes, all grads who aren't in school to train an actually marketable skill are going to be fucked more and more. If you are one of them and happen to be reading this, do your parents and yourself a kindness and change. That extra year schooling may take due to being pointed in the wrong direction will pay itself off in a couple of years when you actually have a job.

So just out of curiosity, what majors/skills do you think fit that bill. I don't disagree with the point I think you're trying to make, but there is also something to be said for studying something your interested in and working to make connections, get internships etc. If you are a middle of the road history major is it going to be harder to get a job than a middle of the road CS major? Absolutely. But if you major in History, get mostly A's, work to get an internship at the Library of Congress or Army Corps of engineers (or wherever) that can certainly work.

I guess all that is to say don't spend four years studying something you hate, and then another 40 years doing it, because you're worried about that first job after graduation.

[HAULN-SS]

My friend just got a job working for Living Social after working for the government for like 6 years..likes the new job a lot.

LivingSocial may be a bad example to use, they just had to lay off 10% of the company and are losing money (to the tune of over $500 million in just the last quarter). If I were your friend I would have my eyes peeled for my next job.

Yeah, I asked him about that, but he had the same basic attitude I do...jobs are so plentiful if you're a good programmer, you can take a chance at working wherever you want, and not have to worry as much if they tank, because odds are you can find another job you want in <30 days. (He wanted to up his skills in ruby, so he went with a job where thats what they do)

When I first moved up here I was paranoid because expenses were so high. As of the last few years, Ive significantly downsized my idea of what job security a big company provides, and went more after programming jobs that I want to do.

[Mike]

stuff i said

So just out of curiosity, what majors/skills do you think fit that bill.

Anything that has you saying "I'm an artist." Be it with words, paint, sound, dance... If you want to write, study technical writing as opposed to creative. If you want to do something with music, look at becoming a sound engineer. If you want to dance, you're fucked.

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I'm not saying give up all hopes of doing your dream, but keep it reasonable. The world will only pay you for what it needs. Get your foot in the door, move out of Mom and Dad's house, and in your spare time work on your plans for [your dream goes here] domination.

[G.Irish]

My friend just got a job working for Living Social after working for the government for like 6 years..likes the new job a lot.

LivingSocial may be a bad example to use, they just had to lay off 10% of the company and are losing money (to the tune of over $500 million in just the last quarter). If I were your friend I would have my eyes peeled for my next job.

Yeah, I asked him about that, but he had the same basic attitude I do...jobs are so plentiful if you're a good programmer, you can take a chance at working wherever you want, and not have to worry as much if they tank, because odds are you can find another job you want in <30 days. (He wanted to up his skills in ruby, so he went with a job where thats what they do)

Word, if he's programming in Ruby he should have some job opportunities albeit probably not as many in this area as there would be in NYC or Cali. I halfway wanted to pursue Ruby since there are more telecommuting options in Ruby but Sharepoint still pays a shitload more.

[G.Irish]

And yes, all grads who aren't in school to train an actually marketable skill are going to be fucked more and more. If you are one of them and happen to be reading this, do your parents and yourself a kindness and change. That extra year schooling may take due to being pointed in the wrong direction will pay itself off in a couple of years when you actually have a job.

So just out of curiosity, what majors/skills do you think fit that bill. I don't disagree with the point I think you're trying to make, but there is also something to be said for studying something your interested in and working to make connections, get internships etc. If you are a middle of the road history major is it going to be harder to get a job than a middle of the road CS major? Absolutely. But if you major in History, get mostly A's, work to get an internship at the Library of Congress or Army Corps of engineers (or wherever) that can certainly work.

I guess all that is to say don't spend four years studying something you hate, and then another 40 years doing it, because you're worried about that first job after graduation.

I'd say that one should balance interests vs. earning potential. So don't go into something you absolutely hate because of the job opportunities but don't study something that you love but will leave you broke. For me I was looking at Biology, Art, or Computer Science. I figured that even though Art, Aerospace Engineering, Biology would be fun, but Computer Science had a lot more career opportunities out there. Aerospace in particular was one that probably would not have paid quite as well, and I would be a bit more limited in where I could find work (the Southwest, Seattle, etc).

You can definitely make some liberal arts majors work for you if you're a go getter but you're still playing a game of odds.
Then you've gotta ask yourself some questions about what lifestyle you want to live. How much student loan debt will you end up with? How long will it take you to pay them off with your chosen career and what sacrifices will you have to make? What's your lifetime earning potential? Where will you have to move to find work? Will this career give you the flexibility you're looking for long term? How stable will your field be over time?

With C.S. I knew the job opportunities, job locations and income potential were there but I didn't really give any thought to the flexibility the career gives me, which is a humongous plus.