McLaren Stripped of all 2007 points, fined $100 mil

[Ryan T]

McLaren have been excluded from the 2007 constructorsÔÇÖ championship and fined US$100 million following ThursdayÔÇÖs FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) hearing in Paris. Drivers Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton have not been penalized and are free to continue their fight for the drivers' title.

The penalty follows McLarenÔÇÖs admission that the team was in breach of the International Sporting Code through their possession of confidential technical data belonging to rivals Ferrari, who are now all but assured of the 2007 constructorsÔÇÖ title.

McLaren are also required to submit detailed plans of their 2008 car to the FIA, who warned that it could apply further sanctions relating to next season should any irregularities be found in the carÔÇÖs design.

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Basically Alonso and Hamilton snitched on them, at least that's how I take it. "However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points."

Some crazy shit. Thoughts on how this will impact the season/sport?

[G.Irish]

First of all, Mclaren got off waaayyyy too easy. Even if they absolutely, positively did not use the data from the documents they were still guilty of possessing them which is a clear violation of the rules. They should have been banned for at least 2 races for that infraction. Harsh, but BAR Honda got a 2 race ban for a far less serious infraction where the FIA even admitted that BARH didn't technical break any rules.

As for whether Alonso or Hamilton snitched on Mclaren, the FIA asked Hamilton, Alonso, and De La Rosa (their test driver) to turn over any pertinent emails. Apparently there were some suspicious emails between Alonso and De La Rosa but no one knows for sure what was in them. Also, no one knows how these emails became public knowledge.

Some reports were saying Hamilton refused to turn over emails but I don't know if its true. I do know that the FIA told the drivers they would not be penalized if they turned over incriminating evidence.

Honestly this verdict wasn't about justice, it was the best compromise in the interests of money. I think the whole situation is bad for the sport but I think that ultimately, if Mclaren did get banned from racing for 2007 and 2008 that it would hurt the championship more than giving them a itty bitty slap on the wrist. Its unfair and unjust but its about the money.

There is still a lot of fishy stuff still in the air and a lot that hasn't been explained in this whole affair so it may not be over just yet.

I think now that Mclaren cannot win the constructor's title they have no reason to use race strategy that will maximize team points. In that case I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamilton get flagrantly preferential treatment over Alonso since Alonso has been an ass and not a team player this year. Sure, the team has been cheering Lewham on more than Alonso but that's to be expected with a British driver who grew up with a British organization. But Alonso's bitching and moaning about it doesn't help the situation, nor did the finish line snub at Monza (Drivers typically pull next to the pit wall as the cross the line to salute the mechanics. Alonso made it a point not to do so at Monza).

[white_2kgt]

The FIA is such a fucking joke, broke rules, blabla, it's company IP information, let the legal courts handle things just like it would be if they were any corporations fighting over stolen IP. I don't see it right that the FIA jump in and strip McLaren of their points. Ferrari should have tighter control of their shit.

[HAULN-SS]

Whats up with your signature chad? hax0red?

[Kaan]

how the hell did they get their hands on the data? I'm sure there is a witch hunt going on in Italy as we speak.

[.RJ]

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[BLINGMW]

First of all, Mclaren got off waaayyyy too easy.

$100 MILLION DOLLARS?

And stripped of points? Sounds pretty big to me. :dunno:

[Ginger]

There must be a lot more money in F1 than I ever thought possible...

[Evan]

$100 MILLION DOLLARS?
And stripped of points? Sounds pretty big to me. :dunno:

stripped of constructor points. no one cares about those.
alonso and hamilton still have their points, and as long as one of them wins the champion ship in a mclaren thats all that matters.

The hundred meeeeylyun fine may just be for show, no one outside of the fia will know if they actually make mclaren pay it.

so basically, its very possible that they didnt get punished at all.

[white_2kgt]

Whats up with your signature chad? hax0red?

just messing around.

[G.Irish]

First of all, Mclaren got off waaayyyy too easy.

$100 MILLION DOLLARS?

And stripped of points? Sounds pretty big to me. :dunno:

Well the constructor's points are important because they determine how much of the TV revenue payout a team gets, which is a substantial amount of money (but that figure is not made public). $100 million is probably somewhere between 1/3 or 1/4 of McLaren's annual budget and the lost revenue from the constructor's point is probably a pretty large sum so its not chump change. At the same time a team like them can afford it. They don't have any debt and they've got boatloads of sponsor cash and probably quite a bit in reserve. Even if they have to borrow money to make up that shortfall its not going to kill them and probably won't even put them behind in development.

Now, if they were banned for the rest of the season and all of next season like some suggested it would put them way behind in development and it would put them in violation of the sponsor agreements so they'd lose that money too. Furthermore, Prodrive is supposed to buying customer cars from McLaren next season. I have to think if McLaren were banned that they would not be allowed to sell customer cars.

My argument is simply that the FIA banned BAR Honda for two races for having a fuel tank that could possibly run underweight, but they never proved they ran underweight, and BARH submitted the schematics to the FIA for approval several races before (which the FIA approved). How can they turn around and not ban Mclaren for any races when they were in clear violation of the rules? Again, I don't know what was in those emails but clearly it implicated them in some sort of wrongdoing. So they didn't want to take away driver points. Well they certainly took away driver points from Button and Sato that year.

Not that the FIA could ever be called a fair and consistent governing body so I'm not really surprised. I just think that McLaren got off easier than what they should have based on precedent.

[G.Irish]

Actually another thought I had was that maybe Nigel Stepney was verbally telling Mike Coughlan details about the Ferrari over the phone. Coughlan then might have passed on this information to De La Rosa, then Alonso. If this was the case, then I don't know what the rule is on that. I couldn't really see punishing a team if another team's personnel decided to give away secrets. In my mind it would be no different than when people change teams and tell their new team things about their old team.

I'll have to sit down and read the FIA judgement in full to get a better handle on this. Here it is for those who may be interested:

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[.RJ]

I don't know what the rule is on that. I couldn't really see punishing a team if another team's personnel decided to give away secrets.

Thats the biggest reasons I think this whole thing just fuels the media circus, and nothing else here. At the end of the day, it does nothing but hurt the sport and drive away fans. IMO, sharing team secrets and spying for technical details has been going on as long as racing has been going on. Teams are photographing all the other teams to look at details on the cars, watch them on track, watch them in the pits, and so on. Team secrets are 'shared' when mechanics, crew, engineers move from one team to another (this happens quite often). It would be no surprise to me if technical documents were floated around as well - but I have no evidence to support that one.

If this is what it appears to be on the surface - one team member sharing engineering details and setup notes with another team - why is the FIA involved? What rules have been broken? Certainly there is an ethical dilemma of what to do with technical details brought to your team about your competitors, but if I were in the same position I'd try to learn whatever I could about it and if I could apply it to my own team I would. They should let the teams handle this internally I think but things on Planet BernieÔäó work differently.

[G.Irish]

Well if it was up to Bernie it would've been swept under the table for sure. I think the distinction is that McLaren had possession of Ferrari's intellectual property. If Stepney just shared everything verbally then it would be a much tougher case to make. But the fact that Coughlan actually had schematics from Ferrari is what's damning.

But I do see your point about other teams spying on each other and what not. Other teams are always trying to figure out what their competitors are doing. And I guess you could say that it is the team's responsibility to protect their technology.

But the line between just observing your competitor and actually stealing is a fairly clear one. A good example would be when Honda first came out with big bang in GP racing. The other teams recorded the exhaust note and took them back to their shops to analyze the sound with oscilloscopes to figure out the firing order. Now if someone had stolen the schematics from Honda, that would have been cheating.

The problem you run into if you just allow people to steal schematics from other teams is you are setting up an environment that will encourage stealing intellectual property for money. Any team could simply set aside a budget for paying people from other teams to steal documents and voila, you have all the best tech for yourself. The teams that would not resort to such methods would either always be behind the 8 ball or would have to resort to stealing things themselves. That's why it should be illegal to take the intellectual property of other teams.

[.RJ]

But the line between just observing your competitor and actually stealing is a fairly clear one.

Is it stealing if the documents are voluntarily handed (or emailed?) to you - or shows up at your doorstep? Its not like the Ferrari guy(s) didnt know what they were doing when they handed over schematics.

Any team could simply set aside a budget for paying people from other teams to steal documents and voila, you have all the best tech for yourself.

Stealing technology doesnt always guarantee success - Toyota proved that one pretty well

[Kaan]

if Nigel Stepney is still working in F1... then all teams are encouraging this behaviour. where is the story where Ferrari ordered a truck load of lime and a backhoe for Nigel Stepney "retirement" party?

[BLINGMW]

The other teams recorded the exhaust note and took them back to their shops to analyze the sound with oscilloscopes to figure out the firing order.

haha that's cool

where is the story where Ferrari ordered a truck load of lime and a backhoe for Nigel Stepney "retirement" party?

:lol: so is that

[Kaan]

so who wants to start a motorsports counter intell company? we might be able to sell our selves to a couple of teams!

[G.Irish]

Yet another twist!

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Ron Dennis is the one who brought up the emails to the FIA!!! If this is true....WOW.

[.RJ]