Official MM Firearms Thread

[WRXtranceformed]

If anyone is in the market for a gun safe, Dick's has a stack on Sentinel 64 gun safe with electronic lock for $699. That's by far the lowest price I've seen for a safe that big. If mine wasn't doing fine or i needed one, i would have bought it yesterday.

[Goodspeed]

Long-time lurker here.  Finally took some worthy pics for this thread, and....finally...my Silencerco Omega entered my possession yesterday (13 month wait).

The big'un is a LWRC M6IC-Di that I've personalized a bit with a LaRue MBT-2S trigger, Geissele Super 42 spring/buffer combo, B.E. Meyers ASR flash hider, V-Seven ejection port cover & a Bushnell SMRS 1-6.5 scope on a Nikon M-Series mount.










The little one is a SBR I built & completed in pistol form last year; the stamp for it arrived around Christmas.  Spec list:

Lower

- McKay Industries Lower

- Geissele SD-E Trigger

- CMMG Parts Kit

- Magpul K2+ Grip

- Billet Innovations Trigger Guard

- Fortis QD End Plate

- Blitzkrieg Osprey Ambi Safety

- V Seven Mag Catch

- Griffin Takedown Pins

- Badger Ordnance Bolt Catch

- LWRC UCIW Stock Kit

Upper

- Aero Precision Lightweight Upper

- Centurion 11" CMR Rail

- BCM 11.5" Lighweight Fluted Barrel

- SLR Rifleworks GB6 Ti Gas Block

- Rainier Arms Nitride Gas Tube

- Toolcraft NiBo BCG

- Badger Ordnance Gen 3 Ambi Charging Handle

- B.E. Meyers 5.56 ASR Flash Hider

- V Seven Port Door

- Gripstop-K

- Centurion Hand Stop

- Aimpoint T-1 w/39mm Riser

- LWRC Skirmish Sights













It's a hoot.  Lastly, a G19 Gen 3 w/ factory threaded barrel, Overwatch Precision DAT trigger & 4.5 lb minus connector, Wilson Combat Vickers sights, Surefire X300U light (may change) & Talon grips.  "Very" easy to be accurate with this - kept it box stock for a year and it's a dream to shoot now.





I'd like to get a Osprey 9k for it, to share with a MP5 clone build at some point:



Anyways, this & taking classes with them is what I got up to between the Miata and the FD.  I've kind of been ignoring them now with the car but getting back to the range.  Hopefully going to take the LWRC to Quantico's 1000 yd. range at some point, and more classes with the SBR.  Many more I want to buy/build too...

[CaptainHenreh]

SBR looks great. A+, would look at again. Ti gas block treating you ok? Not a huge fan of centurion rails but hey, it's yours not mine. <3

[Goodspeed]

SBR looks great. A+, would look at again. Ti gas block treating you ok? Not a huge fan of centurion rails but hey, it's yours not mine. <3

It walked on me the first time I took it out, but a bit more Rocksett on and actually tightening the set screws like man solved that problem, a few hundred rounds through it now without issue.  And I loooooove the Centurion - the golf-ball rail covers are some of the most pleasing I've handled, and the super slim, round profile is just the ticket for my moderately small hands

[ScottyB]

holy crap that's a lot of eye candy. i don't know enough to understand the value of it all but i can tell you put a lot of thought into it. did you build those yourself or have a shop do some of it? sorry if dumb, i am not good with gun stuffs.

[Goodspeed]

holy crap that's a lot of eye candy.  i don't know enough to understand the value of it all but i can tell you put a lot of thought into it.  did you build those yourself or have a shop do some of it?  sorry if dumb, i am not good with gun stuffs.

Thanks!  So the larger rifle (16.1" barrel) came pre-assembled from LWRC International.  I took it mildly apart to change a few things to suit my liking like the trigger, but it came out of the box ready to fire. LWRC is one of the many "boutique" rifle builders (the Secret Service supposedly employs them, as well as the Swedish military) - I had earlier built a 16" barrel rifle myself with a lot of choice parts and this still blew it away, so I parted my build out and sold it off piece by piece. For a longer gun, I'll probably buy off the shelf from now on, though the experience & knowledge gained from putting one together myself was certainly appreciated.

The shorter rifle (literally Short Barreled Rifle or SBR in Bureau of Alchohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (BATFE or ATF) speak) I built myself from all the parts I ordered and collected in the list.  A vise, armorer's wrench, and a good set of punches is mostly everything you need to assemble an AR-platform rifle and the process is pretty straightforward.  As with any SBR project (barrel less than 16" long or overall length less than 26" long), I had to file the proper paperwork with the ATF and wait ~12 months to get the approval to have such a weapon.  In effect, I created a trust that was registered as the manufacturer of the firearm, and my information is discreetly engraved in the trigger guard per their regulations.  A few hoops to jump through, and a long wait, but itty bitty rifles are fun! You can also buy pre-made SBRs (LWRC has a bunch, for example), but you just have to wait 12 months while it sits in a dealer's storage while the ATF checks you out.

[WRXtranceformed]

What's the benefit of an SBR versus like a bullpup?

I know Rex hates bullpups but like why would I wait 12 months when I could buy a Tavor tomorrow? Not a snarky question I'm just legitimately curious

[Goodspeed]

What's the benefit of an SBR versus like a bullpup?

I know Rex hates bullpups but like why would I wait 12 months when I could buy a Tavor tomorrow?  Not a snarky question I'm just legitimately curious

As you noted, I think a lot of it comes down to personal preference.  Being such a different form-factor, bullpups by nature work for some and not for others, either through annoyances with the controls or possibly actual physical limitations of the user.  I personally thirst for a Steyr AUG (because, I'll be honest, Die Hard) but they have their issues, both in design (ex. charging handle and trigger grievances) and in operation by, for example, left-handed shooters (which I am not) who can and will get hit in the face with spent brass.

Shortening the AR-platform leads to familiarity of controls and operation (since I'd wager almost all AR-SBR owners have and started with a full-length AR) so you can pick it up and go/be reasonably well practiced (one would hope) from the start, they're easy to service with most parts being shared with their longer brethren, and the aftermarket is of course massive.  They're just a known-good easy button route to a shorter rifle, if you can stand the wait - and buy or build a quality one with deference given to proper ballistics and so on.  And, the 12 months I quoted is what I went through, but it's been (much) shorter in the past, and hopefully will again be shorter in the future.

[CaptainHenreh]

What's the benefit of an SBR versus like a bullpup?

I know Rex hates bullpups but like why would I wait 12 months when I could buy a Tavor tomorrow?  Not a snarky question I'm just legitimately curious

All of what goodie said. There's the "pistol" shortcut as well, since you can now shoulder pistol braces without the ATF shooting your dog, and you can run as a "pistol" until your paperwork comes back, so you don't HAVE to wait 12 months. Then you have parts commonality, manual of arms, etc. It's yet to be seen, really, if bullpups offer an actual tactical advantage over an SBR considering their disadvantages. (Poor trigger, crap ergonomics, forced right or left use, etc) Quite a few militaries have adopted them, but many militaries have also abandoned them. (France, for example.) The UK bullpup is universally hated by everyone who has ever shouldered one, so I'm guessing that's on the chopping block as well. 


It remains to be seen if bullpups in general are just a novelty.

[Ryan T]

I went the pistol route, lot less hoops to jump through.

[Evan]

It's yet to be seen, really, if bullpups offer an actual tactical advantage over an SBR considering their disadvantages. (Poor trigger, crap ergonomics, forced right or left use, etc) Quite a few militaries have adopted them, but many militaries have also abandoned them. (France, for example.)

No reason to believe that these cant be solved with more development.
Its like a wankel. Is it inherently a shitty design, or is it only shitty by comparison because piston engines have had orders of magnitude more development?

Keltec, for example, has not just solved the forced left/right issue but turned it into completely ambidextrous

[CaptainHenreh]

No reason to believe that these cant be solved with more development.  
Its like a wankel.  Is it inherently a shitty design,  or is it only shitty by comparison because piston engines have had orders of magnitude more development?

Keltec,  for example,  has not just solved the forced left/right issue but turned it into completely ambidextrous

I mean, that's the question, innit? Forget Keltec for a moment, the F2000 is going on 20 years of service and is not just fully ambidextrous, but sealed to the elements. I mean look:




Super cool tactical tunafish. (This was in service while the Tavor was being produced, and yet the tavor still has a "conventional" ejection"...)

As far as the rest...yeah, you're right. Maybe those problems could be solved by throwing some R&D at it. Part of this, honestly, has been driven a little by the American civilian market. In the 80's we saw a lot of moving away from Steel And Big Ass Machines to polymers and aluminum on a CNC. The AR15 got a lot of love in the late 2000's because of the GWOT and the rise of inexpensive CNC equipment. if you want to start a company making AR15's, the investment is MEGA low compared to the return. This has translated into a lot of development work being poured into a single platform, owing just to the modularity and lack of licensing. The only other "big" development has been the "SCAR-Style" extruded monolithic receiver, which is what all the cool kids are building their new rifles on these days (even the tavor, really) for a lot of the same reasons the AR was popular. As CNC gets cheaper and cheaper, it makes more and more sense to just have your "blank" be an aluminum extrusion, and you add all the bits later.

If I had to predict, I'd say the Poles (which have always had pretty good guns) are on the right track with the GROT. The "receiver" is SCAR-Style aluminum extrusion, but the fire control module is reconfigurable from "rifle" to "bullpup" with inexpensive polymer parts. It's way easier to do this way on modern machines than it was in days of yore, so maybe that's the way it's gonna go.

I think most people are spot on, though, when they suggest that no real significant change in small arms tech is coming until at least we:
A: Figure out the whole telescoping case thing
B: Make a directed energy weapon (Plasma rifle, 40w Range)

[WRXtranceformed]

So are Tavor's trash then? I've always had a hard on for an SAR

[CaptainHenreh]

So are Tavor's trash then?  I've always had a hard on for an SAR

I don't know where you got that from, but Tavors are fine, for a bullpup. Maybe best of breed. But one must acknowledge the platforms limitations. 

Lemme give you an example. You're shooting your AR15/Tavor, and your trigger goes mush. You expect a bang, get mush. How to remediate?

On an AR you 'bring the weapon into your workspace' and evaluate. Is the bolt closed? Is the magazine seated? Etc etc etc. I'm not an instructor, there are videos for that kind of thing. A Bullpup is the same, follow the same steps...but the steps are different. Dramatically so in some cases. (How do you check the chamber of an F2000? Hint: step one is remove the mag, step two is turn the frigging thing upside down) 

There isn't a whole lot of training/muscle memory carryover from a conventional layout to a bullpup. The balance is different, the manual of arms is different, the reload process is different (Try doing a tac reload on a Tavor without taking your eyes off the target, good fucking luck.). It's not that it's trash, it's that it really is pretty different to operate. You really have to commit to that platform, I don't think going from one to the other is really feasible. (My opinion, worth what you paid for it.) 

By all accounts the Tavor JewBlaster95 is an excellent firearm, and very well suited to the kind of fighting that the Israelis do. (Lots of house-clearing and looking for Hamas rockets, etc.) But they don't really get into extended firefights, they never have a fight where they don't have overwhelming force on tap, almost never engage beyond 250m, etc etc etc. And they STILL use assloads of M4's and M16's from Uncle Sam for their reserve forces.

[WRXtranceformed]

So are Tavor's trash then?  I've always had a hard on for an SAR

I don't know where you got that from, but Tavors are fine, for a bullpup. Maybe best of breed. But one must acknowledge the platforms limitations. 

Lemme give you an example. You're shooting your AR15/Tavor, and your trigger goes mush. You expect a bang, get mush. How to remediate?

On an AR you 'bring the weapon into your workspace' and evaluate. Is the bolt closed? Is the magazine seated? Etc etc etc. I'm not an instructor, there are videos for that kind of thing. A Bullpup is the same, follow the same steps...but the steps are different. Dramatically so in some cases. (How do you check the chamber of an F2000? Hint: step one is remove the mag, step two is turn the frigging thing upside down) 

There isn't a whole lot of training/muscle memory carryover from a conventional layout to a bullpup. The balance is different, the manual of arms is different, the reload process is different (Try doing a tac reload on a Tavor without taking your eyes off the target, good fucking luck.). It's not that it's trash, it's that it really is pretty different to operate. You really have to commit to that platform, I don't think going from one to the other is really feasible. (My opinion, worth what you paid for it.) 

By all accounts the Tavor JewBlaster95 is an excellent firearm, and very well suited to the kind of fighting that the Israelis do. (Lots of house-clearing and looking for Hamas rockets, etc.) But they don't really get into extended firefights, they never have a fight where they don't have overwhelming force on tap, almost never engage beyond 250m, etc etc etc. And they STILL use assloads of M4's and M16's from Uncle Sam for their reserve forces.

Makes sense.  I've never had an issue per se with my AR platform it just seems a little long and unwieldy for a gun with not a lot of stopping power.  I always felt like the Tavor would let you shoot from more compact scenarios/profiles, but that's probably just my ignorance and lack of tactical shooting training

[CaptainHenreh]

Makes sense.  I've never had an issue per se with my AR platform it just seems a little long and unwieldy for a gun with not a lot of stopping power.

wat?

The hell are you trying to shoot with it?

[WRXtranceformed]

Makes sense.  I've never had an issue per se with my AR platform it just seems a little long and unwieldy for a gun with not a lot of stopping power.

wat?

The hell are you trying to shoot with it?

Armor plated Nazis hiding behind technicals

[Evan]

Lee you can shoot my RDB sometime if you're in the area. Ive never shot a Tavor to compare, but some people who have say the RDB is as good and sometimes better, and they say it on youtube so it must be true.

btw, whats the closest outdoor range to No. VA?

[WRXtranceformed]

Lee you can shoot my RDB sometime if you're in the area.  Ive never shot a Tavor to compare,  but some people who have say the RDB is as good and sometimes better,  and they say it on youtube so it must be true.

btw,  whats the closest outdoor range to No. VA?

I appreciate that man I would love to take you up on that!

I didn't do a lot of outdoor shooting when I lived in VA but our farm was about a mile away from the Isaac Walton League outside of Leesburg.  I can't remember if that's open to non-members or what, I only went up there a couple of times I think for Boy Scout stuff back in the day.  I'm 99% sure that's all outdoor range

[Ryan T]

So I know this is the “gun” thread, but a lot of talk has taken place about knives, so I figured this was as good a thread as any to put this.

Hopefullly some of you are familiar with the History Channel show Forged In Fire. One of the old Judges named Jason Knight recently relocated to my area. Today he did a forging demonstration at a local park for the local blacksmithing organization. A buddy of mine from work and I went to check it out. He forged a big ass chopper out of a piece of high carbon steel and, while waiting on it to cool, made a small knife out of a piece of ball bearing steel. It lasted about 3 hours and he went through all the steps from setting up the forge to actually forging the blade. He took the big blade all the way down to being smooth, but just roughed the small blade into a “grinder ready” finish. After it was over they did a raffle for the two blades, along with a bunch of other forging stuff, and my $1 won me the small knife! It was a ton of fun, very educational, and took a lot of the wonder out of the ‘what is really involved’ in the forging process.