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+--- Thread: Supercars are Dumb (/showthread.php?tid=10980)
Supercars are Dumb - G.Irish - 05-21-2015
Even though I'm pretty damned happy with my M, I've been thinking about what car I'll get in the next few years, as is the custom of the car guy. The next cars on the potential list are things like a 996/997 Turbo or GT3, or maybe the 360 I've always wanted.
But then I've also been thinking about some of the bonkers track cars out there like the Zenos E10, Ariel Atom, Radical, Caterham SP/300R, etc. In the case of the Atom and Zenos you get a car that is as fast or faster than most supercars around the racetrack and costs a lot less to acquire and way less to maintain. Blown engine? Buy a $4k Honda engine on ebay. Torpedo a tire wall? Assuming you haven't been maimed, fuck it, buy another one. Tires, wheels, brakes, gas, and oil are all cheaper than the supercars. And with all that money you didn't spend you can really drive the car harder than you would that Ferrari. And you don't have to deal with being gouged in the derriere with a Ferrari-branded fireplace poker when it comes time for service.
So then I wonder, why the fuck should I buy a supercar? For the price of a used 997 Turbo or 360 I could buy a Zenos E10s outright and have money leftover for a decent and fun streetcar. I could buy the Zenos or a used Atom and an early NSX, or E39 M5 or a S2000, or even a silly project car. K20-powered MR2-Spyder or stuff a LS V8 into something. Or even something dumber like one of those stuper-SUV's to tow the track car.
I mean when it comes down to it, I'd want to drive a supercar on track, and I'd probably never really push it to hard because of the golden steering wheel effect. It'd be fun around town, but there are only so many miles you'd want to put on some of these cars lest you tank your resale value. That track car though would be a fucking weapon in HPDE or autox and you could take it out on Sunday drives here and there.
Sure if I became wealthy I'd buy a big ass garage with a modest house attached and fill it with the exotic metal of my dreams. But I probably won't get that kind of money anytime soon. My rational mind says that with a healthy but not insane budget supercars are stupid. I don't necessarily buy things with my rational brain so maybe I'm just blowing smoke but I feel like this may be the answer for my car future. What say you MM?
Re: Supercars are Dumb - WRXtranceformed - 05-21-2015
Most people buy supercars to drive them to the country club, or to enthusiast meets, or to take their wife to the steakhouse on Friday night and not to track them. You are really looking at two different classes of cars here, track vs. street. It's usually only the wealthy (not rich) people that buy supercars and actually take them to the track. You are right in that maintenance costs for supercars are one thing but maintenance (and repair) costs when you start tracking them have to be astronomical. Unless you are truly wealthy, can afford the cashburn and don't care that you could wad up a half a million dollars into a twisted heap of metal, there's no reason to even consider a supercar if you want something for the track.
You are not going to convince your wife to cram into the passenger seat of an Atom and head down to the Capital Grille. And you are most definitely not going to drive a car like that anywhere close to its potential in the DC area unless you take it for a long trip like out to Middleburg / The Plains where we used to play on our secret back roads. It is my opinion that the only reason you would buy a car like an Atom is if you have that big garage with lots of other cars, you have a reasonable track consumable budget and you want something that is silly fast for the track. If you had to have one (supercar or Atom-thing) you aren't going to want the Atom to be it. Heck, you want to at least own something you can drive in the rain.
Personally if money is no object and I could afford either, I would go with a supercar. For myriad reasons, most of which have to do with comfort and livability. I also don't track cars but if I did I would be nervous even taking my car out on a track.
With that said I think there are some "compromise" cars out there. Ever looked at a Rossion Q1? What about something like Evan's Exige? For that $100-150K price point you can get yourself into something that is more raw than a pure street car, still has the exotic looks and turns heads, performs like a raped ape on track and won't completely destroy your budget to the tune of $20k service intervals.
Just my $0.02 man because I'm like you, I'm always thinking ahead toward the next big step. But being realistic it would absolutely suck to have a car that you could get wet in as your weekend / fun car, or to have something that your wife won't even consider getting in.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - G.Irish - 05-21-2015
I figure if I got the hardcore track car the wifey could ride in the M5/S2000/Cayman/Z4M or what have you. I figure she would be down for riding in the track car if she's down for riding on the back of the bike. But with the track car I could take her or anyone else for a ride on track (don't know how many people would take me up on that though).
That Rossion Q1 looks a lot like something I would consider. I liked the Noble M400 even if the build quality was suspect. The Exige and Alfa 4C are both pretty good compromises IMO. Running and repair costs would be higher for both of those than an Atom or E10 but you wouldn't need a trailer for 'em (assuming they don't break down or get wadded up).
Re: Supercars are Dumb - WRXtranceformed - 05-21-2015
For sure, I mean I am not saying that you couldn't convince your wife to get in it ever but if you can't fit luggage in it or put a top on it it's not really going to be a very versatile weekend car.
Shoot the Rossion uses Ford motors so it can't be terrible to maintain. I could see you in an Alfa...heck I would love to see anyone in this club in one :lol:
As I have gotten older I have gravitated to the big cushy barges with big engines that are way faster than they should be. When you get a LOT older the hardcore track-oriented cars are going to wreck your spine. I always thought the R8 was a good compromise, one of the more comfortable sort-of-supercars I have ridden in and they can be had for a reasonable price. Maintenance is probably a disaster on them for long term ownership. A V10 convertible version though? HNGG
Supercars are Dumb - JPolen01 - 05-21-2015
I'm constantly thinking about the next step. I think it's a sickness. I'm with you G. My list consists of the F type, e92 m3, cayman s, 997. If you are thinking of dumping your M in the coming months let me know. I really want a DCT sedan...
I think a v6 S F Type will be attainable for me possibly in spring depending on how much more they depreciate. Cayman S are in my budget right now but it would be an 06/07 which feels like of old already. I really need to decide if I want to row my own gears or not first. Then my search will be much simpler.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - G.Irish - 05-21-2015
I feel like I held out against the 'what's next???' disease for a long time, especially with having RJ as a roommate for several years. Or maybe the infection has always been there just lying dormant. I'm not itching to get rid of the M3 as of yet but I like thinking about what I'll do in a couple of years.
I was actually thinking about starting another thread for the 3-5 year car outlook for everyone. I feel like it's kind of hard to plan when you don't really know what's coming out in some cases. Supposedly there's a new Honda sports car under development that will slot under the NSX (mid-engined, 4-cylinder turbo). But when is that coming? 2017? 2018? Also rumors about a M2 CSL. I'd like something like that too but when? Would I want to trade my M for that? Would a used Alfa 4C be viable by that time? Or would I rather do the super track car + reasonable street car thing?
JPolen01 Wrote:I think a v6 S F Type will be attainable for me possibly in spring depending on how much more they depreciate. Cayman S are in my budget right now but it would be an 06/07 which feels like of old already. I really need to decide if I want to row my own gears or not first. Then my search will be much simpler.Thing is that there are a lot of these that people just don't drive too much. So you could probably find a pretty good Cayman S that won't give you much trouble. The F Type would be pretty balla though.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - JPolen01 - 05-21-2015
I know I can find a cayman all day. With 50-60k they are going for mid 20s-30ish. I wonder what the used GTR market is. Never looked into them but I think that could make a good daily /weekend toy.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - D_Eclipse9916 - 05-21-2015
Here is the thing, you gotta decide what you actually enjoy. I fantasize plenty about 997 gt3s, 360s, brand new z06s, brand new anything.
Problem is, like I learned about the LS1/M3; you gotta figure out what you like. If you like cruising, like the "modifications" and want something bad ass. Build a project car. The LS1/M3 got so much attention, was fun as hell at cruising and going to cars and coffee. I got bored. I am not a cars and coffee person in that, I like it, but I couldn't just "do" cars and coffee.
A 997 GT3 sounds awesome, and would be hella quick on track, but then you have to maintain it, and worry about it. And then it's not even as quick as a real dedicated race car, or as fun. Until you have driven a "dedicated" race car, you don't realize how much even street cars that are badass are "boring" on track. I imagine it must be like the difference between an F2000 open wheel car and my old GTS car.
I do "want" a nice car, but I also want to drive something. Jon Polen would be at home in an e92 m3/gt3 etc, because he enjoys the car and enjoys that experience. Lee wants a sweet car that is also nice to drive. You, G? I think you are getting too old to track bikes. I only say this because my brother stopped racing bikes around your age/had a kid. You know how a quick tankslapper can mean you in the hospital for a week. I think you have to decide wether you want to track and be able to push yourself, or if you just want to cruise. It's not an easy choice. If you loved autox, there are some great choices out there that make double duty not so hard (c6/C5 z06 in AS/SS/SSP, 997 gt3 in SSR, Exige in SSR/SSP).
Re: Supercars are Dumb - JPolen01 - 05-21-2015
I think you're spot on Dj. It's hard for someone like you who has wheel time in a lot of vehicles even tracking some of those. I have no desire to get on track (I know those words are blasphemy around here) and I'm not afraid to say it. I would rather have a car I enjoy looking at and getting into everyday and that will be fun to toss around a back road after work or on the weekend. I just need to narrow my ideas down a bit lol. This thread is helping and not helping at the same time.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - Jake - 05-21-2015
Call it blasphemy, but I really don't have much interest in supercars beyond "ooh, pretty." I want something that's sexy, comfortable for a weekend cruise or commute, athletic on a back road, with little compromise if I take it through the middle of DC.
Something like an F-Type (I followed a navy blue one home from work today... hnnng) or a Cayman S would, I think, really do it for me. I like to drive my cars and have no interest in a "show car queen" reserved solely for Cars & Coffee and maybe date night if we go somewhere that the front lip won't get torn off.
I think the common issues with Ferraris, Lambos, etc are what have been mentioned already. Too much concern over resale value and high maintenance costs that come with piling too many miles on 'em for me. And really, a bit too flashy. We all like being seen to a degree, but I'd rather have "just" a Porsche or "just" a Jag. Hell, even an Audi R8 would be "understated flashy" and reasonably useful day-to-day. But a Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, etc... I can't get into them right now.
Maybe if I had the money and space to park one and take it out only for club track days and club wine tastings with a bunch of other old men at the country club... eh, probably not.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - Apoc - 05-21-2015
I just realized G doesn't have the Cayman and has an M3. :lol:
Re: Supercars are Dumb - Senor_Taylor - 05-21-2015
I just think it is so cool that I actually know people that can seriously talk about owning all of these cars I've dreamed about. Coming from a little town like where I'm from, seeing y'all's lives is incredible. I can only hope I can achieve the success y'all have some day.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - *insertusernamehere* - 05-22-2015
G.Irish Wrote:E39 M5 .... What say you MM?
YOU'VE SAID ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID, WHAT IS THE QUESTION?
Jake Wrote:Call it blasphemy, but I really don't have much interest in supercars beyond "ooh, pretty." I want something that's sexy, comfortable for a weekend cruise or commute, athletic on a back road, with little compromise if I take it through the middle of DC.Preach.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - HAULN-SS - 05-22-2015
From what little I've looked around at "supercars" you could always try to buy one that has high miles and has been well maintained? There are a few out there, but rarer than the 15 year old 10k mile car for sure. I realllyyyy love the v8 vantages, and the thought crossed my mind to pick up one of the ones you see running around with 60k miles on them. Whatever would break has already broke and been replaced, depreciation at the bottom, and for some some reason, I think I'd get something out of eventually having a 100k mile supercar, not sure why.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - SlimKlim - 05-22-2015
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Here is the thing, you gotta decide what you actually enjoy.
/thread.
Just depends what you want to do with the car and what you want to get out of it.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - BLINGMW - 05-22-2015
I think DJ hit the nail on the head. Not only are you old :finger: but the decision starts with what you like to do. FWIW, if I was going to spend a bunch of $ on a toy, then it'd go to something designed for it like an Atom or actual race car. And if I had FU money, it'd be more purpose-built toys. Monster truck, bulldozer, dune buggy, submarine, helicopter, robotic exoskeleton... who has time for cruising around in a 360? :dunno:
But if cruising around, going to shows and having something unique is the goal, then why not an E28 M5, Cadillac convertible, or replica Mach 5?
Re: Supercars are Dumb - WRXtranceformed - 05-22-2015
HAULN-SS Wrote:I think I'd get something out of eventually having a 100k mile supercar, not sure why.You'd get a drained bank account and probably a couple of gray hairs
I'm kind of surprised nobody is talking about a used ZR1...that is going to tick the track and weekend cruiser boxes. And wow looking these up I can't believe how fast they plummeted in value:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=28277&endYear=2016&modelCode1=CORV&showcaseOwnerId=627734&startYear=1981&makeCode1=CHEV&listingType=used&listingTypes=used%2Ccertified&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=70000&showcaseListingId=398906519&mmt=%5BCHEV%5BCORV%5BCORV%257CZR1%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=396154974&Log=0">http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 4974&Log=0</a><!-- m -->
Dang it now I'm all looking at low mileage R8s like I would even consider buying one any time soon
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=28277&endYear=2016&modelCode1=R8&showcaseOwnerId=68863659&startYear=1981&makeCode1=AUDI&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=90000&mmt=%5BAUDI%5BR8%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=366963639&Log=0">http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 3639&Log=0</a><!-- m -->
Re: Supercars are Dumb - Ken - 05-22-2015
JPolen01 Wrote:I think a v6 S F Type will be attainable for me possibly in spring depending on how much more they depreciate.
I'm on the exact same train of thought and time-table :thumbup:
I'm hoping that since it will be the third year we'll start seeing some 14' come back off leases.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - Jake - 05-22-2015
Thanks to you clowns, I pulled up AutoTrader and looked at CPO'd F-Types. Still far too rich for my blood, but damn if I don't keep thinking about P-cars. A 2007ish Boxster S or Cayman S is actually really attainable price-wise. But, that'd assume I give up the track thing (no money for a third car and definitely nowhere to park it). Maybe when I'm a few years older and have a place of my own - at least that'd solve the parking issues.
Re: Supercars are Dumb - WRXtranceformed - 05-22-2015
Senor_Taylor Wrote:I just think it is so cool that I actually know people that can seriously talk about owning all of these cars I've dreamed about. Coming from a little town like where I'm from, seeing y'all's lives is incredible. I can only hope I can achieve the success y'all have some day.Some of the wealthiest people I have ever met came from really humble beginnings buddy. Set lofty financial / career goals for yourself, work hard to achieve them, and be smart with your money (ie. save what you can early and put yourself in a situation in which you are leveraging debt not fighting against it). As long as you do those things, are generous toward others and live within your means, you can set yourself up to do whatever you want with your money. It's cheesy but this quote is pretty true: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."